tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post7034057077255317243..comments2024-03-28T05:22:10.255-07:00Comments on Broadsword by Ajai Shukla - Strategy. Economics. Defence.: Visitors' expertise forum: Where does the Tejas stand?Broadswordhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13076780076240598482noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-24904704215003593272014-02-22T07:34:34.807-08:002014-02-22T07:34:34.807-08:00sir can any one tell me actual projected top speed...sir can any one tell me actual projected top speed of LCA MK1, and achieved top speed of LCA MK1. <br /><br />thank you.<br />MMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-76337341681157454662014-02-05T12:49:53.607-08:002014-02-05T12:49:53.607-08:00Hi,
I guess this is really late, I have to share ...Hi,<br /><br />I guess this is really late, I have to share this for keeping the record straight.<br /><br />Active fuel proportioner is not going to be incorporated in LCA Mk1 (don't know about Mk2). They are quite happy with the passive fuel proportioner itself.<br /><br />Thank you.<br />Indranil RoyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-40439047913301884932014-01-10T22:43:14.430-08:002014-01-10T22:43:14.430-08:00My assessment of the Tejas program from a broader,...My assessment of the Tejas program from a broader, end user prospective:<br /><br />1. The overall airframe design is the latest from the 1980s, not the 2nd decade of the 2000s. Draws much from the Mirage 2000 and MiG - 27, both designed in the 1970s. <br /><br />2. Easy to blame this on the specs as given by IAF, but then these specs were given in the early 1980s. The programme shouldve had a Sunset Clause, so that if the first prototype wasnt ready by a decade or so from commencement, cancel it. <br /><br />3. The private sector shouldve been involved to a higher degree, with DRDO providing research and technical support. If groups like tot eh Tatas are good enough for Sirkosky to enter JVs into, L&T can design n build specialised frame, etc, a better job wouldve been done on this. <br /><br />4. With the global aircraft majors now exploring technologies such as the BAE Taranis, N-Grumman X-47B, etc we should not be spending money re-inventing the wheel but encouraging govt and private corporates to design the next gen of systems. a JV like that for Brahmos would be a great way to do this. <br /><br />Finally, im sorry to say this, but i think we should take ACM Tipnis' advise- the Tejas should be sent from the drawing board to the meuseum. A good effort, but not worth risking pilots and operations on. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-1620802648701555612013-12-31T00:14:35.508-08:002013-12-31T00:14:35.508-08:00So who won what star?So who won what star?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-40649358235525949772013-12-28T07:07:57.249-08:002013-12-28T07:07:57.249-08:00Col. Shukla, good to know that you agree that Teja...Col. Shukla, good to know that you agree that Tejas Mk.1 can undertake Air-superiority missions inside Pakistan and Tibet.<br /><br />Tejas Mk.2 shall be equivalent to Gripen NG since both shall use the GE-F414 engine and have increased fuel capacity and payload capacity.<br /><br />Again, Gripen NG cannot carry nukes, but its conventional range-payload specs should compare well with Rafale, Typhoon and F-16 E. <br /><br />Now, the Ra-Fail, Typhoid and F-16 all have 150 kN of powerplant(s), and can carry upto 9 tons of conventional warload. So, why did the IAF also invite Gripe-water in the MRCA sweepstakes ? Gripe-water has just 108 kN powerplant and can carry just ~5.5 tons of external load.<br /><br /><b>Answer :</b> Don't go by the fables of 9 tons max. <b>weapons</b> payload of Ra-fail, Typhoid and F-16 E. With that, they can just take-off, do a parikrama of their base before their fuel runs out. The real interpretation is that they're hardened to carry nukes or Brahmos-like hardware under the belly hardpoint.<br /><br />This Herculean task can only be done by the F-1<b>5</b> Strike Eagle, and the Su-30. Nobody else.<br /><br /><b>Question 1 :</b> Now, IAF never specified that the MRCA should be able to carry Brahmos or nukes. So, why was the Rafale chosen ? After all Gripen was the cheapest, hai na ?<br /><br /><b>Question 2 :</b> Even if Gripen failed some initial tests, Tejas shall surely pass all those tests after FoC. And the Tejas Mk.2 shall be even better than Gripen NG.<br /><br /><b>Question 3: So, why doesn't IAF choose Tejas Mk.2 as the MRCA ?? Instead of wasting money on Rafale, why doesn't it work together with ADA to expedite Tejas Mk.2 ? It can even invite Reliance if it wants. They'll be happy as long as they get money, whether by Rafale or Tejas Mk.2, Mukesh Ambani won't care.</b>Abhimannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-19272241837863238192013-12-27T20:19:47.684-08:002013-12-27T20:19:47.684-08:00Thank you.
Great nuggets of information. Did not...Thank you. <br /><br />Great nuggets of information. Did not know that there is a "might" involved for levcons related to the Navy version.<br /><br />Indranil RoyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-56354229115565414752013-12-27T19:35:03.542-08:002013-12-27T19:35:03.542-08:00@ Indranil Roy
Thanks for your great posts. You a...@ Indranil Roy<br /><br />Thanks for your great posts. You are modest. Your expertise is greater than most of us.<br /><br />Can't comment on ongoing design thought and, in some cases, I simply don't know. But here are some answers to some of your questions.<br /><br />Levcons. You might see them on the naval Tejas.<br /><br />STR. Let's see how close they come in flight testing during 2014. The envelope is still being expanded in testing. They could very well prove 26 degrees in AoA. That would mean flying to 28 degrees.<br /><br />Supersonic 1200 tanks will be tested.<br /><br />No co-cured bonded wings now. Design has been frozen for manufacture.<br /><br />Active fuel proportioner: already there.<br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br /><br /><br />Broadswordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13076780076240598482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-21318012551254325082013-12-27T19:24:41.713-08:002013-12-27T19:24:41.713-08:00@ Abhiman
You're correct, except for your rec...@ Abhiman<br /><br />You're correct, except for your recommendation that the Tejas could escort the Su-30MKI on strike missions.<br /><br />The Su-30MKI is big and powerful enough to carry a bomb load, air-to-air missiles for its own defence, and also my aunt's suitcase to be handed over in Lhasa.<br /><br />That's what multi-role is.Broadswordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13076780076240598482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-34620100359963072822013-12-27T19:19:39.716-08:002013-12-27T19:19:39.716-08:00@ Air Cmde R
Air intake redesign can only take pl...@ Air Cmde R<br /><br />Air intake redesign can only take place for the Mk II. For now, it would be worth looking at whether the Mk I serves an operational purpose.<br /><br />If that is so, the line can produce more Mk Is to replenish the dwindling squadron numbers, even as the Mk II is completing design.<br /><br />You don't think so?Broadswordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13076780076240598482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-44290482632527141592013-12-27T19:16:08.065-08:002013-12-27T19:16:08.065-08:00@ Jean Luc Picard
Some very good points. Agree wi...@ Jean Luc Picard<br /><br />Some very good points. Agree with you in many respects.Broadswordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13076780076240598482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-37516474413016306652013-12-27T19:14:20.747-08:002013-12-27T19:14:20.747-08:00@ Stratgenius
Ha Ha. While they're at the DA&...@ Stratgenius<br /><br />Ha Ha. While they're at the DA's office, you don't think they could free Devyani Khobragade, if they have some spare time after liberating Tibet?Broadswordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13076780076240598482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-37351307645417318852013-12-27T19:13:31.893-08:002013-12-27T19:13:31.893-08:00@ Anonymous 15:05
Bingo!@ Anonymous 15:05<br /><br />Bingo!Broadswordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13076780076240598482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-3932145532414803422013-12-27T19:12:03.574-08:002013-12-27T19:12:03.574-08:00@ Anonymous 13:32
Is your name Ajai Shukla?@ Anonymous 13:32<br /><br />Is your name Ajai Shukla?Broadswordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13076780076240598482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-35243386016679676682013-12-27T19:11:07.545-08:002013-12-27T19:11:07.545-08:00@ Anonymous 12:05
You're thinking in the righ...@ Anonymous 12:05<br /><br />You're thinking in the right direction... :-)Broadswordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13076780076240598482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-22811381990381864922013-12-27T19:09:32.986-08:002013-12-27T19:09:32.986-08:00@TIMBAKTOO
I see that you've made a serious e...@TIMBAKTOO<br /><br />I see that you've made a serious entry for the silver star!!Broadswordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13076780076240598482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-72764875181014241842013-12-27T19:07:07.031-08:002013-12-27T19:07:07.031-08:00@ TIMBAKTOO
Your proposed re-design would make th...@ TIMBAKTOO<br /><br />Your proposed re-design would make the Tejas a medium fighter from its current light fighter class. I'm sure you know that there are advantages in being a multi-role light fighter, even if it does not have some of the stuff that heavier fighters have.<br /><br />Also, for Heaven's sake, what is this "balance" that you are trying to achieve?!! You have forgotten that the Tejas has been designed to be aerodynamically unstable.<br /><br />You over-estimate the 414's power output!Broadswordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13076780076240598482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-84797069335839313482013-12-27T11:59:09.015-08:002013-12-27T11:59:09.015-08:00Colonel Shukla,
Thank you for your great write up...Colonel Shukla,<br /><br />Thank you for your great write ups till now. I am really looking forward to your write up on Tejas post IOC-II. I had refrained from writing anything here since you had solicited comments from "from visitors with strong experience in design and operations", and I am just an enthusiast. Nonetheless, here are some of my questions which are hitherto unanswered.<br /><br />1. They were studying using the MLG doors as air brakes. Any developments on the same.<br />2. When can we expect to see the reshaped pylons. Are they planning to retrofit the LCA Mk1 types with Levcons (they were studying this possibility) for meeting the IAF ASR regarding sustained turn rate(STR)? Will Mk1 be able to meet the ASR regarding the STR with these changes or will we have to wait for Mk2 with its more powerful engines.<br />3. Many models of LCA show the inboard pylon to carry 2 1000 lb bombs in tandem. However, I have never seen an LCA fly with this configuration. Can the LCA do the same?<br />4. Currently supersonic 800 ltr external tanks are being designed/fabricated. We will see them by FOC. What about 1200 ltr tanks?<br />5. Will the Mk1 planes have co-cured co-bonded wing for lesser weight. They were also trying to reduce the weight by converting the slat doors, casing & mounting of LRUs and rear fuselage bulkheads and pylons into composite materials. Have any of these been achieved?<br />6. For increased maneuverability throughout the flight they were thinking of introducing an active fuel proportioner for better C.G. management. Any developments in this front?<br />7. Are the issues related to the toe-touch during ejection resolved since AI'11?<br />8. Has the minimum chute jettison speed reduced from the 40 kmph identified at AI'11?<br />9. In the last high-altitude tests, there were problems with the engines. Have suitable modifications been made? <br /><br />Thank you.<br /><br />Indranil RoyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-41426118803883845522013-12-27T11:55:15.750-08:002013-12-27T11:55:15.750-08:00@Mr. Timbaktoo,
1. Tejas has one of the largest s...@Mr. Timbaktoo, <br />1. Tejas has one of the largest static margins with its mean tinme to double amplitude being 200 ms. I think that I read somewhere that wobble is being faced at high speeds, but I can't confirm that either. But according to their studies from sea level trials, they found that wave drag was their biggest problem. So they are trying to smoothen all notches on the area curve. You must have read about the nose plug in Mk2. You might have also seen the smoothening along the APU intake and the trailing edge extension on LSP-7 and LSP-8. They are also redesigning the pylons with sharper leading edges. I was wondering what other things were you speaking of when you said "The shape of the front as well as back of the body around the wings be changed as per the wave-patterns".<br />2. The wing design (without the levcon) shows increase in CL till 35 degree AoA. They are seeing the cliff in CYM and CRM at 25 degree, that is why they are limiting AoA testing to 24 degrees right now. But they have significant rudder authority till 30 degree, So they are thinking of increasing AoA to 26 degrees by using artificial stabilization in yaw.<br />3. You might know that initially many configurations for LCA were studied including those with canards. They were discarded for the current configuration. So I don't think that they would go back to the canard configurations. Having said that they have found that the Levcons are giving them better L/D and they are thinking of making this part of the IAF version as well in order to meet the STR requirements.<br />4. I wouldn't go for the Gripen NG configuration for the MLG. They did not magically increase internal volume. Those large fairings at the wing body joint aggravates the wave drag problem. In stead I would go for a Mig-21 kind of solution, where the wheel is accomodated within the fuselage and the rest of the structures are accomodated in the wing. I will take whatever extra internal fuel that gives me. (Going by the models of Mk2 displayed till now, they pushed the MLGs a little more outward, but have still retained the original configuration from Mk1).<br />5. I don't think the IAF has the time to wait for Mk2 with a redesigned wing for extra weapon load and stations. Given the time restrictions, multi-rack pylons would do the trick, as the cummulative payload capacity of pylons od Tejas is more than the maximum payload that it can carry.<br />6. I would not like to increase the payload of Tejas Mk2 by a lot. Gripen NG fully loaded out is fairly restricted in its flight. It makes sense for lesser airforces which don't have medium-weight category fighter air craft. This is not the case with IAF which can afford to have efficient light, medium and heavy aircraft. <br /><br />Indranil RoyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-51050253146581479332013-12-27T02:17:24.608-08:002013-12-27T02:17:24.608-08:00The way I sum it up is we are definitely hypocrite...The way I sum it up is we are definitely hypocrites.We compare Tejas to Gripin and so on and so forth. For most Tejas and Griping actually fall in the same category. Tejas definitely needs a more powerful engine. I suppose the money we spending on the Rafale could have been better utilized. <br />Consider our requirements. Pakistan has JF-17 and China has J-10. I think I would have been better if we would order 100 mk1 and 200mk2 to our inventory instead of the Rafale. <br />The concern only remains will HAL be able to deliver all. <br />No doubt that Rafale is superior to the Tejas but with improvement in Avionics and Radar systems (AESA Radar) it can give any fighter a run for its money. The apt of shooting a fighter jet is not just with the better aircraft, it is both the aircraft and pilot awareness. <br />Now don't run Tejas on the same boat as the Arjun Tank. Ordering 120 tanks and 120 fighter jets is a world of a difference. 120+ tanks can be made in a year. 120 jets will definitely take 8-10 years. Another thing is I think the airforce is right in its choice to take the number of MK2 required. However they could have managed a total of 200 Tejas.<br /><br />Namely:<br /><br />100 mk1<br />100 mk2<br /><br />The reason why we choose to take the Rafale is the Technology that comes with it. It will help us with the AMCA. In terms of the super cool gizmos in it.<br /><br />My idea of IAF requirements should be:<br /><br />300 - Su30 mk1<br />200 - Tejas<br />200 - FGFA<br />125 - Jaguars<br />110 - Mirages and Mig 29<br /><br />The money spent on the Rafale can be better utilized to equipt the other defense divisions.<br /><br />$4 billion - 12 kilos subs (immediate gap fillers - Russians can deliver subs quick)- This would be in addition to project 75I, which in broad words could be reducted to 4 subs - preferably Scorpenes as we have them already.<br /><br />Army needs guns<br /><br />$2.5 billion - 814 truck mounted guns<br />$400 million - 400 odd pinakas<br /><br />and upgrade of all M46 130mm guns to 155mm 45 cal.<br /><br />Another thing that comes to my mind is why scout for a gun when we can licence make the Bofors. I know the barrel burst but it is not impossible to rectify. <br /><br />I know I have deviated from the topic but I think we need better use of resources and dedicated acceptance and mass production of Indian made products.<br /><br />The army has definitely been the worst in terms of accepting Indian stuff. An attitude that requires must change.<br /><br />Regards,<br />Chirag Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-22065272298683642962013-12-27T01:05:35.634-08:002013-12-27T01:05:35.634-08:00How about using the tejas mk1 as a close air suppo...How about using the tejas mk1 as a close air support aircraft? The Americans tried converting the f-16 to an "A-16" by adding armour around the cockpit , strengthening the wings for a higher load and adding 2 additional gun pods. The a-16 never saw the light of the day as the army's current a-10 was extended. But a CAS version of the Tejas might work in India. (And also since we have no dedicated CAS aircraft presently in service) This version need not have a high power to weight ratio or higher angle of attack (Common complaints of Tejas). For CAS operations what matters is low velocity manouvers which I understand Tejas excels at.Nishant Pathakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17470864461449751959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-18947174884335809102013-12-26T23:41:22.732-08:002013-12-26T23:41:22.732-08:00I think its will be a mistake if IAF does not adop...I think its will be a mistake if IAF does not adopt the aircraft fully , they need to plan for atleast 400 fighters going into Mark II config otherwise it will be wasted effort.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-22883982175713519792013-12-25T21:58:14.275-08:002013-12-25T21:58:14.275-08:00The development of systems such as an aircraft is ...The development of systems such as an aircraft is an evolutionary journey and in this context, what we have achieved with Mark- 1 is undoubtedly a momentous milestone to take pride in. At the same time, a comparison of Mark-1 with its competitors may end up giving a different feel but as long as progress is being made, I believe we are on right track.<br /><br />The other important aspect which must not be overlooked is the possibility of Tejas being in the air forces of the many of third world countries to say the least. Some of you might have heard about the 1st flight of “Scorpion” , a tactical twin engine aircraft which was developed by Textron group. The Scorpion is being looked at replacing the much expensive aircrafts for roles/missions for which Scorpion is cost effective and aptly serves the mission requirements.<br /><br />Why can’t Tejas be marketed as a low cost , sufficiently capable combat aircraft to the world with smaller pockets? To develop a successful aerospace industry, one must export….Assuming a good export success story of Tejas, one can be hopeful of a ripple effect on other domestic programs including future versions of Tejas. Sweden, US, Russia, UK are testimony to this.straight_curvehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02595708597841793035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-14448392803473466542013-12-25T06:26:23.750-08:002013-12-25T06:26:23.750-08:00Tejas' range-payload specs are comparable to t...Tejas' range-payload specs are comparable to the MiG-29s in IAF's fleet. They are both capable of carrying > 3 tons of weapons payload on internal fuel alone. The combat-radius shall also be the same, because if the MiG-29 has twice the Tejas' powerplants, it also weighs twice as much.<br /><br />Now the question arises, of what use is the double weight of the Fulcrum and its double engine power? Especially when its <b><i>conventional range-payload</i></b> capability is the same as that of Tejas ?<br /><br />What were the Soviet designers thinking ?<br /><br />The answer lies in the fact that a MiG-29 can carry nuke weapons under its belly (though IAF ones aren't configured to). Typically, these are very heavy and can't be carried under Tejas' belly.<br /><br />So, leaving aside nuke delivery Tejas is comparable to IAF's MiG-29s in the delivery of conventional weapons. It must be able to undertake Air-superiority missions inside Pakistan and Tibet. It can even escort Su-30 MKIs in their surgical missions deep inside Pakistan and Tibet.Abhimannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-77246755063768615992013-12-24T18:26:27.852-08:002013-12-24T18:26:27.852-08:00Tejas ... a clarification from DRDO, HAL & ADA...Tejas ... a clarification from DRDO, HAL & ADA<br />Why have they termed IOC as Initial Operational Clearance while the rest of the military aviation industry calls it Initial Operational Capability?<br />Is there something we don't know or are trying to hide via an acronym loophole?<br />Tejas is a path breaking project and those involved will do well to keep within prescribed norms. We don't need the world's ridicule to belittle such a momemtus achievement. <br />Also ... indigenous this .. indigenous that .. enough already! Why do we have to announce so! Why this complex? We are developing good technology .. the world recognises that. Nevermind that certain developments are with clandestine help from friends .. the world recognises that too. So what? Just build it and build it well. The world will know it is Indian. Microsoft or Apple don't call their products indigenous but we know it is American. Let Tejas and other developments also be known that way.<br />axenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8726844009873922462.post-66118350570696082512013-12-24T13:59:30.282-08:002013-12-24T13:59:30.282-08:00With apologies to Nawaz Sharif, let me say "H...With apologies to Nawaz Sharif, let me say "Hawa main udta hai(!!), bum girata hai, door door jaata hai(!!)". :D<br /><br /><br />Now where is my prize....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com